KATHY - we're in good company

when you think of mother teresa, what words come to mind? for me, i think of “poured out, deeply connected to God, amazingly humble, willing heart, in love with Jesus, filled up. sacrificial love” among many others. i am pretty sure “doubter of God”, “overwhelmed with emptiness”, or “tired of never getting His help the way she wanted” were not words i would have used to describe her. it’s sort of old news, but the recent release of mother teresa’s private letters has been rumbling around Christian & nonChristian circles in the past few months. I heard the story earlier this year, that during her decades of ministry she only had a few good weeks where she really felt it. the rest of her journey she didn’t feel God the way she longed to and experienced deep spiritual dryness that was agonizing.

here are some of the things she said to a trusted confidante:

"The more I want him — the less I am wanted”….."Such deep longing for God — and ... repulsed — empty — no faith — no love — no zeal. — [The saving of] Souls holds no attraction — Heaven means nothing — pray for me please that I keep smiling at Him in spite of everything."

and in some private letters to Jesus:

Lord, my God, who am I that You should forsake me?....The Child of your Love — and now become as the most hated one — the one — You have thrown away as unwanted — unloved. I call, I cling, I want — and there is no One to answer — no One on Whom I can cling — no, No One. — Alone ... Where is my Faith — even deep down right in there is nothing, but emptiness & darkness — My God — how painful is this unknown pain — I have no Faith — I dare not utter the words & thoughts that crowd in my heart — & make me suffer untold agony. So many unanswered questions live within me afraid to uncover them — because of the blasphemy — If there be God — please forgive me — When I try to raise my thoughts to Heaven — there is such convicting emptiness that those very thoughts return like sharp knives & hurt my very soul. — I am told God loves me — and yet the reality of darkness & coldness & emptiness is so great that nothing touches my soul. Did I make a mistake in surrendering blindly to the Call of the Sacred Heart?

the question is, does this comfort you or freak you out? i think for me, it’s a combination of both. it is so comforting to know that i am not alone in the darkness, that someone far more spiritual & powerful & poured out for God than me doubted just as much (maybe even more!) than I sometimes do. when i doubt, which is often, i hear this ugly little voice in my head that says “you loser, you have been a Christian for a long time and look where it’s gotten you. if you had more faith, you wouldn’t be in such a crappy spot. if you just bore down on the scriptures & started praying harder you wouldn’t be here to begin with. you must be doing something wrong to feel so disconnected from God. what do you need to confess or pray against so the bad feeling will go away?” i could go on and on, it’s all a little psycho inside my head when this starts to happen. i think if most of us are honest, we all have these sorts of thoughts to one degree or another (i think those of us who were trained in the evangelical-think-truth-and-then-it-will-become-your-reality strains have a greater degree of shame when we doubt). or maybe i’m the only one and you are all saying behind my back “what is kathy’s problem?” (yeah, that’s my next psycho thought after the first round…)

what is interesting to me about mother teresa, one of the most revered and beloved spiritual women of this century, is that she didn’t share these thoughts publically. they were in private letters. her interior world and her outside persona were two different things. i understand and respect her dilemma, and we do not have to go around sharing all of our private moments with God with everyone we meet. at the same time, it made me wonder why she was afraid to be more honest in public—would her ministry have been questioned? would she get reprimanded by the powers that be above her and encouraged to get her spiritual act together fast? would she have lost some of her following? i have no idea and because she’s so revered i feel a little guilty even questioning any of her motives, but i guess i am just questioning why her outside & inside had to look so different?

the heartbeat of the refuge is real authenticity, our outside & our inside being integrated. that means we say some of the crazy things rattling around in our head which can sometimes be quite unsettling. and we do this even though we are pretty certain that people (especially Christians) like positives! what sells are results—10 steps to this and 8 simple ways to that. the power of positive thinking, praying, living, eating, you name it. all of these things will get you reconnected to God in no time. no one likes to focus on the negative. i don’t, either. but i do like to focus on the truth. and the truth is that sometimes i am mad, tired, and wondering when-the-hell-i-am-going-to-hear-from-God-so-i-can-feel-better. and despite my doubts, i do believe Jesus came to bring us life, real life, a depth & fulfillment in ways that are sometimes so unexplainable. but i am trying to learn to embrace that real life, real relationship doesn’t mean that i never doubt, wonder, question, get angry, or feel like walking away. in fact, ingredients of real intimacy with God (and people) include all of those things. what i like about mother teresa’s journey is that even though she doubted, questioned, shook her fist, cried out, and sometimes wanted to walk away she did actually stay in. she kept pouring her heart out to God and lived out her passion for the poor & unloved as best she could. she didn’t lay down and die. she didn’t disconnect from life & community completely. she didn’t run the other way. she stayed in.

at the refuge, sometimes it is so clear that life gets harder than we hoped. we long for the easy road, some kind of escape, a short cut, some way to feel better quick. i believe wholeheartedly that Jesus and the crazy unexplainable movement of his spirit in our lives is the answer. but i guess i am reminded today that it doesn’t come quick, it doesn’t come easy and we are in good company with the saints when we doubt, question, and aren’t feeling him like we so desperately long for. i guess what i hope for me—and for all of us—is that we keep staying in.

KARL: volume is the key

this past weekend we hosted in the denver area our friends jim henderson and matt casper for a series of conversations. jim is a committed christian (small “c” on purpose, his preference) and matt is an atheist. together they collaborated on a book project, Jim and Casper Go to Church, and in the process they became friends. what a concept.


participating in these conversations over the weekend, i felt something familiar to me, that instinct when someone does not see the brilliance of our position and how we tend to react. it really does not matter if it is an atheist, republican, democrat, or most commonly just my poor, sweet wife--my instinct when someone disgrees tends to be the same.

here's what i consider the anatomy of a fight:

1. i present the undeniable facts or truth
2. april does not respond by acknowledging my superior intellect
3. i assume she did not hear me. if she heard me, she would just say “thanks, you are so smart”
4. so i end up saying the same thing, but a bit louder
5. april makes it clear that she can hear me, but she disagrees with me.
6. i repeat the volume step (#4), but with more volume
7. april now seems to be not repenting out of spite
8. i assume that if i ridicule her, then she will somehow see how smart my idea is.


you can see how this will end. i am hoarse and april is no closer to my reality. it happened each day this weekend as matt and jim listened to what was supposed to be questions from the audience. every time, someone could not believe that matt or jim saw life or the bible or faith differently, and of course all they need is more volume. or perhaps if we ridicule the atheist or progressive christian, then they will change. of course, this was played amongst many wonderful, thoughtful & sincere other questions as well, but the volume ones really struck a chord.

i loved the weekend, the conversation. i am trying so hard to turn down the volume so I can actually hear what those who see life differently have to say. what do you sy? what are some of your perspectives on the conversation?

a believer. an atheist. an unlikely friendship. engage in the dialogue in denver this upcoming weekend september 14-16th!

the following is a reprint from september 07 vertigo: the monthly online journal of spiritual dizziness at the refuge. some of you have already read it, but the blog gives you a chance to comment on it, too. for those of you who don't get vertigo, we wanted you to have a chance to experience it. to sign up for vertigo each month, click here.

this subject hits a place near and dear to our hearts--the ability to dialogue instead of debate, offer love & respect instead of judgement & condemnation when others don't believe the same things we believe. being a Christian doesn't mean you have to be a judgemental, arrogant jackass whose sole purpose is to tell others of their wrong thinking. ok, so some of you are saying "well, wait a minute, Jesus told us we need to speak the truth, share the gospel, not water it down." we understand the dilemma, we feel it, too. and that's the big idea here: how do we live out the ways of Jesus, really? can't we learn to be better listeners, lovers of all people? what does this mean for the "church'? for the refuge? for each of us?

we hope you can join us as we dive into the conversation with the authors of the new book Jim & Casper Go to Church. jim henderson's a Christian & former pastor from seattle and director of off the map. matt casper's an atheist who lives in san diego. they traveled across the US together last summer visiting over 20 churches; their unlikely friendship and perspective on the Christian church will challenge us all. they are coming to the refuge on sunday, september 16th (we are hosting them at two other locations, too, friday night the 14th at CU boulder & saturday morning the 15th at pathways church). more details are on the web.

in preparing for their visit, we had a chance to ask jim and matt a few questions.

what motivated each of you to do the jim and casper go to church project?

JIM: After "winning an atheist's soul" on ebay I was approached by George Barna about doing a book that featured myself and an atheist going to church together and writing reviews. Beyond that it just sounded like a very fun thing to try and pull off.

ps: you can read a little more about that experience here.

MATT: Ummm. I have been engaging people in talks about such questions-is there God? Why are we here? What should we do?-for years. In the book, you see that first I met Jason, who runs a home church, and we became friends. Then, through him, I met Jim, and we ended up writing a book together. I was motivated by the same reasons I am motivated to travel, to read as much as possible, to write music: I knew it would be a learning experience, and I knew I would have fun, too.


what was the funniest moment on your adventures together?

JIM: My funniest moments came when I knew what Casper was about to experience but I let it happen anyway and just watched for his reaction--like getting ambushed by a couple of Bible thumpers right after church or watching people's faces twitch when we told them that Matt was an Atheist and I was a Christian and we were writing a book together about church.

MATT: Probably any time Christians made Jim more uncomfortable than they made me. Or maybe at The Bridge in Portland. It caters to a young hip crowd, who are typically a young, hip, and poor crowd. About midway into the service, they all started heading for the exits (a smoke break, I presumed). Seconds later, the collection buckets-trick or treat baskets that looked like Spiderman and Batman-came out. Suddenly, this mass exodus made perfect sense.


thinking back on your travels together, what surprised you the most?

JIM: How fair Matt was in his assessments of Christians--not a surprise as in a BIG surprise but as in a pleasant surprise. Also on how much we agreed on.

MATT: How much we agreed on. See? We just did it again! Also, Jim used to play in a few bands ("We were like 'The Beatles' of Mexico City. . . "). The biggest surprise was how quickly Jim and I established a rapport. . . within about a few hours, we were holding nothing back.


matt, if you knew nothing about Christianity but only went to the large churches to find out what would you say are some of the primary values of Christianity?

MATT: Believing in God, growing the church, converting people to Christianity. Sounds good when you read it like that. But I want to know: what good does simply believing do anyone? Belief is not an ends, it's a means. And growing the church is not the same as helping people or doing God's will. . . it's more like a business objective. And when the talk was about converting people, it sounded like folks were more interested in putting "notches on their cross" rather than really helping people. . . "So, Bob, how many conversions did you land this week? Only 3? HAH! I converted 12 people! Boo-yaa!"

jim, if you were telling the average evangelical christian what is on your heart related to the "church", what would you say?

JIM: If I didn't have to open with a long list of qualifiers I would say: We've inherited a view of church that is flawed. It has been in the works for about 1700 years or more. It is called the religion business. We need to rescue Jesus from religion and take him public. We have an historic opportunity to nudge this thing back into movement phase if we can find the courage to follow in our founders' footsteps and care more about how the missing see us than how the found do.


of course, your trip was limited to short visits into churches for an hour or so service. if you had really hung out in the community for a longer period of time, what do you think you may have discovered?

JIM: If we could have located them, we would have seen numbers of ordinary people serving non-Christians in ordinary ways. Unfortunately due to the economic pressures (as in justifying the pastor/speaker's salary) put on churches there is little to no time to feature these ordinary people every weekend.

MATT: I would (and here's my bias) probably have been disappointed as--based on some conversations I've had with more than a few Christians--a lot of people seem to think being a Christian requires little more than a 10% donation and an hour on Sunday. However, I did attend a small group at a local Baptist church where people talked about how to apply what they learned in that day's sermon, but it was kind of meandering and no real "action items" came out of it.

what is the hardest part for each of you to understand about the other person's belief system? what has surprised you the most about the others person's beliefs? what has offended you? encouraged you?

JIM: I don't find atheism hard to understand. I think it is a common sense and reasonable conclusion to come to if you are limited to measuring using our five senses. Further I think that a reasonable and maybe even a compassionate person (Christians call them humanists as if it is a dirty word) would certainly find it ludicrous to believe in any god currently sponsored by the major world religions. I mean they are pretty weird--including the religion known as Christianity. Having said that, I find atheism to be very difficult to believe in. I have had too many experiences in life that are transrational, loving and lovely to not raise my suspicions that there is a God out there who is at least as good as I can be (on my good days). Besides whether or not Jesus is objectively true or real I would like him to be and since I don't find anything particularly compelling or interesting about atheism (which could also be a reflection of my lack of intellect) I will stick with the Jesus story and look forward to falling into his arms when this rat race is finally over. There just has to be a place called heaven--this place is just too screwed up. I can't believe that this is the end. . . sorry.

MATT: This is the question we don't discuss in the book, but purposefully. It's not that we avoid it. It's just that. . . well, what's the point? If you want me to learn about your beliefs, show me how you live. Jim and Jason and all my believing friends know that I think believing in supernatural gods is really quite strange when you stop to think about it. But what encouraged me was hearing Jim freely agree ("Yes, I see how you think it could be very strange. . . ") and not try to tell me I was wrong. And I never said he was wrong, either, because, in my opinion, when it comes to what you believe it's subjective and cannot be proven or disproven, so why bother. . . ? Ask questions, get to know a person, be free of an agenda beyond, pursue "I'd like to know what you think." Nothing Jim did offended me as he answered every question from an honest place. Who could ask for anything more? I came away from all of this encouraged, because American Christians-in spite of the fact they worship one of the most peaceful men who ever lived-can get quite vitriolic and violent while discussing their beliefs. Jim didn't and doesn't.

what is the best thing you have learned from being in relationship with one another?

JIM: Being friends with Matt has made me a much more honest and grounded follower of Jesus. It has also motivated me to become a better practitioner of dialog and made me less afraid of difference. Our friendship is a unique gift and one I hope to cultivate for the rest of my life. I really enjoy Matt and especially enjoy his humor, kindness and interest in others.

MATT: Being friends with Jim has made me a much more honest and grounded atheist. It has also motivated me to become a better practitioner of dialog and made me less afraid of difference. Our friendship is a unique gift and one I hope to cultivate for the rest of my life. I really enjoy Jim and especially enjoy his humor, kindness and interest in others. Also, being friends with Jim has changed how I see the world. I was never an "angry atheist" like so many high profile authors we hear about today--Dawkins, Hitchens. et al. (I think they are "anti-theists" not atheists as their books seem to be about how there is no God, not about how living with no God can be a good thing.) I am now so much more in touch with how I see the world, and I remain as open as ever to the fact that I may be wrong about there not being a god. Some would say that makes me an agnostic, but the fact about gods is that no one can prove or disprove their existence. Thus, we never know (until we're dead). And so, aren't we all agnostic with tendencies toward either belief or non belief? I never asked myself these kinds of questions or crystallized these kinds of thoughts until I met and traveled with Jim Henderson. I am glad to know him.

the reason we invited you guys to come to denver is we believe in your project. we are listening. as Christians, we really want to be people who ask ourselves the hard questions--how did our reputation become so crazy? what has the church become? why is it so hard for us to live alongside people who disagree? we of course are hoping there will be a wide range of people at these conversations, across faiths, no faith, ages & experiences. so, as you prepare to come here to denver, what are you guys hoping the conversation will do for those who come?

JIM: Move them to connect with someone they think of as "the other" or as "an outsider" and become great question askers.

MATT: Help people return to treating faith as faith, and not as fact. In the book, I close with wishing people would stop staying, "Be a Christian or go to hell" and start saying, "We follow Jesus, and here's what we do and how it has helped us."

so, everyone, we hope this gave you a small taste of our conversation. we'd love to hear your comments. this is definitely one to invite your friends to. they will be at the refuge on sunday, september 16th at 5:30 pm. we are also hosting them at two other locations to give as many people as possible the chance to participate. . . CU boulder on friday night the 14th at 6pm and at pathways church on saturday morning at 10 am. for details click here.

KATHY - fabio jesus

i hate to pick on fabio, but honestly, I do not know what his appeal is. he’s just so….perfect. those abs, the flowing hair, the perfect smile, those penetrating eyes. if you could can the world’s view of “perfect specimen” of course he would be it. (i will admit i do have a weakness for long hair, jose had me under his spell when he grew his hair out last year and had that liberal-lawyer-surfer look! too bad he has to keep his job as mr. conservative united pilot) but, back to fabio. and Jesus.

a few weeks ago, I was watching the trinity broadcasting network, the home of christian-evangelical-name-it-and-claim-it-craziness. we are talking a serious multimillion dollar industry—all in the name of Jesus. it actually is quite nauseating but our friend nadia was asked to write a book about her experience of watching TBN for 24 hours straight. she wanted to add some flavor to each hour, so she invited karl & i over to offer our perspectives since we are now pretty much former good evangelicals who now live in the sh**ty christian camp. well our hour slot included a ½ hour program called God Wants You to be Wealthy where the “speaker” wore a silver trenchcoat mini-mini dress with 4 inch heels and tried to hock her book “God wants you to be a millionaire.” She encouraged us to “sow our best gift now” by donating to her program. don’t even get me going on that one. but my commentary for the moment is that she was perfect in every way, with off the charts confidence, and an absolutely convincing delivery to all of the poor souls who are just hoping for some kind of crumb to make their lives better. her promises were ridiculous and using God that way just really gets to me...the other 1/2 hour program featured the Holy Land Adventure theme park in orlando, with Jesus reenactments throughout the day. guess who Jesus looked like? yeah, fabio.

have we simply made God in our own image? we want Jesus to be hip, cool, appealing. that’s what we are drawn to—images in people magazine & cosmo. christianity (mostly the american version) have become the root of a money making machine, a business that is fine-tuned and finessed to perfection. we like to watch and listen to people who are good looking, smart & make life look simple. this flawless, easy, and comfortable appearance has become a staple of church programming. we want to make the gospel easy for people to get. we want to make their church experience comfortable, distraction-free. we don’t want anyone to be offended. we want Jesus to be attractive. what Bible are we reading for goodness sake? Jesus was ugly. not cool. not worldly. not slick. not hot. the old testament prophet isaiah describes him this way:

he had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
he was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not. (isaiah 53:2-3)


does this look like the Jesus most churches are trying to sell? does this look to you like any of the pretty, neat, and tidy intact families you see on most church programs & websites? I don’t want to dismiss all those pearly white teeth and smiling faces, but come on, people that look like that, really only “look” like that. and here’s the rub--these are the people most churches are trying to attract. pretty, happy, smiling, successful, confident, married with 2.5 kids. they look great—on the outside.

well, Jesus surely wouldn’t have made the photo shoot cut. there’s no glamour in who He was, what He did, and what He has called us all to. in fact, not only is it not glamorous, but it’s downright stinky, dirty, and as ugly as you can get. feed the poor, hug the lepers, give away all of your money, care for the prostitutes, share your stuff, sacrifice your pride & comfort & family’s name, lay down power, hang out in the slums, be honest about all the daily struggles in your imperfect life. that, my friends, is the gospel. you see, it can’t be cleaned up. because real humanity, people trying to live this difficult Genesis 3 life, isn’t pretty. it’s full of pain and insecurity and shame and sin and craziness and desperation. i don’t care how pretty you try to dress it up on the outside, it just isn’t all that attractive. now I personally find it beautiful beyond words—all that rawness, dirt & sweat rubbed up against honesty, unconditional love, grace, healing, and hope. to me, it’s glory. i believe wholeheartedly that Jesus came to dwell with us in the stench and offer beauty and redemption in the midst. He sits in the muck and isn’t afraid of it because it’s real.

so why are we so afraid of it? i am. i admit it regularly. i think it’s because i often make God in my own image. i lump Jesus into all my worldly ideas about success and value and beauty. everything has to be fabio-like, but in reality, life gets ugly. yeah, i can clean up the outside pretty nicely, but it’s just christian window dressing. my faith isn’t strong enough to heal me, victory is not my middle name, shame is. i can never really measure up. i keep screwing up the same things over and over again. i know that’s the big idea of the gospel—we can’t. i can’t. it’s why i so desperately need the real Jesus and His grace, His hope, His help. the whole big idea here was always our heart, the stuff on the inside, but that is always the most dangerous place to go. my hour of TBN tv-watching just reminded me how often the current contemporary “church” (and me, when i’m making God in my own image) isn’t into the real Jesus. and i think that there’s a simple reason—the real Jesus is unpredictable, wild, crazy, and asks us to do hard things in our life that require us to get up off our comfy seats, peel our eyes off the video screen, and engage in the ugliness & beauty of other human beings. to bring what’s underneath our veneer and coverups to the table and look beyond what we see on the surface in others, too. money, power, comfort. strength, worldy beauty. none of it means a damn thing in God’s economy but it sure gets some serious airtime in the american church, and not just the ones on TV. Jesus, forgive us, for making you in our image. we admit, it’s a really bad (albeit easier) idea.