KARL - The Fear of "L"

Beware: not a funny blog. boring, actually, but for a small section, perhaps interesting.

Most of my Christian life I have been afraid of “L”

It is similar to when I was in grade school, and more than anything I did not want to be a sissy. I don’t think a worse epithet could be hurled at me. So great was my fear that I not only did all I could to avoid that label, but I of course avoided those who were identified as sissies. But what exactly is a sissy?

When I first became a Christ follower in high school, the only Christians I knew were very conservative evangelicals. I am really grateful for the bible training I received, but the constant fear of “L” is a lingering effect. The threat of “L” is still a weapon used today, and the ramifications can be painful.

Liberal was the worst category of people, for they were bright, educated, and wrong. To be liberal was wrong in moral or willful ways, not simply ideology. While in Bible College and seminary I was taught it was the greatest threat to the cause of Christ and the kingdom of God. But what exactly is liberal?

I understand that politically some who would prefer to see a more equitable distribution of wealth via government action are liberals. But by any definition they are the enemies of conservatives. I have always been on the conservative team, and thus my enemies were liberals.

Here is what happens then in real life: I am confronted with an issue regarding politics, sex, money, heaven, etc. Responding was never really very difficult because I used to know exactly what my team thought. I could give a “right” answer, and I knew it was right because it was agreed to by all my friends and it was conservative. Ah, so comforting. But what happens if you start to think a thought that you know is not conservative? (think, what happens if I cry on the playground?)
Fear. Fear that my conservative friends will think I am liberal. And then I won’t have any friends.

I am in new phase of life, where I want to think thoughts that scare me, and might not be conservative. But I am afraid I will be without friends. Long story, old message. We all want friends, and that desire clouds much of what we do. I miss the clarity. It was so much easier. I don’t really want to have to make all new friends. Can it be okay to have a just a little bit of L? I can already hear the voices “it’s a slippery slope...”

Or maybe I just need new friends?

SAM - Less is More

I’ve used this video recently in a church classroom from You Tube titled Shift Happens to create conversation about globalization and explore the truths about our ever increasing globally connected society. Of the many mind boggling statements in the video, one of the most notable in the video was, “Did you know…we’re living in exponential times.” This was followed by example after example of where our current state of consciousness globally is to make more, create more, dream more, have more, produce more, see more, more, more, more. Well, you get the point. Which leads me to the conclusion, that since we live in Exponential Times we must be headed for an Exponential Faith. But what does that really mean?

Sunday night I sat in on a “Bible Study” that was all about Jesus. The topic of discussion was “Learning to slow your busy life down as Jesus did and make time to connect with God and/or be in God’s presence.” Not a bad topic at all. Scripture gives us examples of Jesus “getting away” to pray and such in Luke 4:42, Luke 5:15-16, Matthew 14:22-23, Luke 6:12…and I’m sure you could find more if you studied the Bible or just Googled it. Given all that good stuff, the reflection about Christ finding time to “chill” was a good one, until half way into the study I heard the magic word, the global word, the exponentially suggestive word...more. Once that word more is introduced in a faith study it’s like the shifting of the tectonic plates for some reason. The conversation shifted from an acknowledgement and identification of Jesus’ human need to take some time to step back from “busy life” to a formula of how we could have an exponential faith. And this is where I start to get uncomfortable.
Perhaps it’s the type of Christian I am, or lack of being a real Christian for that matter depending on how you receive the rest of this post, but I cringe at the idea of more of anything when it comes to looking at one’s spiritual life and thinking it’s not good enough where it is. I’ll admit I am an advocate for growth, absolutely without a doubt, though I advocate for a transformational learning approach towards growth, versus a transactional learning approach towards growth. The difference is this (defined in oversimplified terms):

Transactional Learning approach: a process becoming changed primarily by gaining factual knowledge.
Transformational Learning approach: a process of getting beyond gaining factual knowledge alone to instead become changed by what one learns in some meaningful way.

In my experience, when you engage Scripture to extract from it formulas to have more faith, more love, more trust, more healing, more strength, more Jesus, more God, more, more, more…in the least of these it produces more guilt. I would venture to say, that not simply for the least, but for most of us it produces more guilt somewhere down the road. More than likely it’s when we come to the realization that most of us can’t take these formulas and create more of anything. Consequently we’re left with ourselves and our ordinary faith. Then we feel like shit because we couldn’t be like Jesus.

I must confess I do believe we are living in exponential times, and therefore more of some things are needed. I would argue that we need more opportunities to engage in spiritual formation, which come forcefully through transformational learning. Primarily through engaging the kinds of people Jesus did, the least and the last, whatever that looks like in your context. I would challenge us all to go for it, but have no expectations of yourself, of others, or of Jesus. Just enter into community with others and be…then be yourself. Remember, you are loved wherever you are, and then remember you are invited to go a little further. Accepting that invitation will lead you to take one step forward, two steps back, and that’s just fine. Just start walking and remember, transformational learning is a two way street, which is best experienced when it means something to you, not some formula someone gave you.

Sam also blogs at www.geographyofgrace.com.

brian mclaren shares with the refuge!

the following was part of our november 2007 vertigo, the monthly refuge ezine (if you are interested in subscribing, click here). we have always known we wanted the refuge to be a missional community, deeply committed to global & local social justice. we want to stay connected to bigger conversations that are happening in the world because there are great thinkers out there stirring the pot & causing others to consider hard & challenging issues on how to live out the ways of Jesus in the midst of this broken & crazy world. one of those voices is brian mclaren. some of you have read his books, that include a new kind of christian, a generous orthodoxy, the secret message of Jesus. a former english teacher & pastor, he has been a key voice in challenging christians to consider how we can live the Kingdom of God now. he is booked solid for 2008 on a tour for his new book, everything must change (a worth read for sure!), but somehow in the midst of his crazy schedule he took time to answer the refuge's request for an interview.

your books & teachings have been making a pretty big impact on the current christian culture. you are stirring the pot and causing people to really question what they believe about life as a christian. why do you think the message you are sharing has become so powerful?

At this point, I think my work has been more provocative than powerful. I hope it will be powerful in the sense of motivating more and more people first to see, then to care, then to act, and then to make a difference. Here's what I mean: I was talking to Jim Wallis the other day, and we were talking about the change in the wind that we both feel - that more and more Christians are seeking an integral or holistic understanding of the faith, one that puts personal spirituality and social justice together. But then Jim added, "But 30,000 more people died yesterday from preventable diseases. Until that number goes down to 20,000, and 10,000 and 1,000, we aren't really making the difference that's needed."

For that to happen - for us to move from thought to feeling to faith-in-action to Spirit-empowered-change - it takes groups like The Refuge working all this out on the ground in their neighborhoods, which is why I'm so thrilled to be talking with you.

I think that we all can feel a change is in the air. Something is trying to be born. Something is trying to take root. We feel the Holy Spirit groaning deep inside us, refusing to let us be complacent and satisfied. I hope my books are a little shred of those groanings, and that they're resonating with the groanings other people feel.


what do you think isn't working too well in the contemporary american church? what still amazes you about it?

I like the way you phrase that. I think a lot is going well, so uch really. But at the end of the day, I think Dallas Willard is right: we have a "great omission" in our "great commission" which means that we're making Christians (or born-agains or charismatics or Baptists or Pentecostals or whatever) but not necessarily making disciples of Jesus the Liberating King. To put it more strongly, we're better at making Christian consumers than we are at forming love-and-good-works-producers.

But a lot does still amaze me ... a little Anglican church in Canada where people faithfully come to say and mean the Lord's prayer and celebrate the eucharist and confess their sins and be sent out "to love and serve the Lord" - it's a small miracle, really. A big megachurch in the US that's mobilizing it's people to address racism and poverty. A pentecostal super-megachurch in El Salvador that started a recycling center because they believe the Holy Spirit not only produces healings but also environmental responsibility. There are ten thousand beautiful stories like these.


Jesus had a lot to say about injustice, power, and the least of these. why do you think it's been so easy for us to ignore injustices both locally and globally? what do you think we're afraid of?

One of the big reasons is that we've been taught to read the Bible in special ways that blind us to a lot of its power. We've been taught to spiritualize and segment and hyper-analyzie and focus on trees and miss the forest. And I think you're right when you imply that fear is a big part of it.

Partly, I think we're afraid of change. But before we even get to that, I think we're afraid of being criticized. A lot of our religious communities run on fear: ask the wrong question and you're seen with suspicion. Don't be satisfied with the standard answer and you're out the door, with people talking about you behind your back. This atmosphere of fear accounts for a lot of our religious behavior, I think.


the title of this newest book is everything must change: Jesus, global crisis & a revolution of hope. why must everything change? what do you think is going to happen if we don't change?

Jesus taught us to pray, "Your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven." So, wherever we see God's will not being done ... wherever God's dreams for our earth aren't coming true ... that's where change is needed. Of course, it doesn't happen all at once: I'm not calling for violent revolution or careless insurgency. How the change happens is as important as that it happens: it happens quietly, but steadily, like yeast working in bread, like light penetrating darkness, like salt flavoring or preserving food, like fertilizer transforming soil so gardens can thrive.

In the book, I describe the peculiar and rather startling situation we're now in: we've developed a large population, a huge rate ofglobal consumption and waste production, and a complex and somewhat fragile economic system supported by the most dangerous weapon systems in the history of history. This puts all of us at risk. I'd rather leave it up to readers' imaginations to answer your question about what happens if we do nothing ... because it's not a pretty picture.

The good news is - and really, the book is about hope and good news -if we have faith as big as a sesame seed on a bagel, we can begin to turn things around. With God, nothing is impossible, and so mountains of injustice can be moved, and valleys of poverty can be filled in. I really believe that!


you travel a lot and see a depth & breadth of injustice in the world that many aren't aware of. which injustices have gotten under your skin the most?

I suppose religious injustice comes to the surface first: religious people who use their holy texts - whether the Bible, the Torah, the Quran, or whatever - to legitimize the status quo or justify meanness. That makes me sick.

But beyond that, I've been thinking of economic injustice the most. I've been asking how can we turn capitalism around so that it becomes an engine not just of win-lose competition ... us versus them, me versus you ... but instead becomes a catalyst for collaboration, you and me together for the common good. I guess you'd call it capitalism with a conscience. I'm really inspired dreaming about an ethical buying movement, where we use the democracy of dollars to work for global social justice. Wouldn't it be great to go into a store and find a code or rating on every product ... so that we had the chance to choose products that were produced by means that are socially and environmentally sustainable? I really believe that's something that we as people of faith could make happen, and it could make a real difference for billions of people.


we agree with you, that as Christians we have spent a lot of our time & energy in the wrong place--focusing on what we need to do to get to heaven, instead of thinking about how to live out the Kingdom here on earth. what are some ways you believe we can live the Kingdom now?

For Jesus, it starts with how we treat our neighbors. So you're white and you're getting on the bus or you're walking into a party - where do you sit and who do you try to get to know? Another white person of your social class and race? Or do you specifically look for "the other" - the woman with a Muslim head scarf, or the kid with a bunch of tattoos, or the African American teenager standing in the corner? A smile on the sidewalk, an extra kind word in the check-out line ... these small actions add up.

Of course, it's an election year, and so we all need to take voting seriously. As I see it, as a follower of Jesus, I can't simply vote my self-interest. I have to vote on behalf of the salmon and the warblers and the desert tortoises who don't have anyone voting for them. I need to vote on behalf of the innocent kid in Iran who might be bombed pre-emptively if we elect a warrior president. I need to vote for the poor farmers in Sierra Leone - whose lives would be way better if we had a president dedicated to using American power as a good neighbor, not as an imperial power. That sort of thing comes to mind.

Ironically, for those of us who believe that heaven is a gift of grace, not something we have to work for or achieve ... we of all people really don't need to be preoccupied with that any more, so we should be of all people most free and ready to invest our lives for the least, the last, and the lost, as Jesus did.

In the book, I try to help people understand how to make a difference by looking at the world in terms of three interlocking systems - a prosperity system, a security system, and an equity system. I think that we can find ways to function in each of these systems according to kingdom-of-God values ... and we can be agents of the kingdom in all our daily actions.


you are a spiritual activist, calling out some things that you believe are wrong with the system. how do you live out what God has layed on your heart even though the system doesn't like it very much? does it make you angry, others' responses to you, calling you a liberal heretic among other things? what do you do with your anger? how do you not get cynical? (we are taking notes)

If religion is the opiate of the masses, as Marx said, then cynicism is the opiate of intellectuals and the graveyard of activists who burn out. So you're so wise to see the dangers of cynicism and bottled up anger - which turns to bitterness and ruins your ability to serve others in love. I don't like being criticized, but I try to keep a few things in mind. First, as the singer Jackson Browne said, if you have a few real true friends, somehow all the other ones are easier to bear. So I cherish my friends as never before when I find a lot of people lining up as critics.

Second, I remember I'm a sinner, which normally isn't very hard because I'm constantly proving the fact. The worst thing anyone has ever said about me isn't as bad as what I know about myself, and nothing compared to what God knows about me. In this way, critics are what you could call "cruel friends" - they do you an immense service of helping keep you humble. Third, I try to remember that people who criticize me are just doing what they think is right. I've criticized a lot of people unfairly or in ignorance myself through the years, so how can I be angry at others for doing what I myself have done? Fourth, I remember Scriptures like Paul's words in Colossians, where we're called to forgive others as God has forgiven us in Christ, or I recall the Lord's prayer, where Jesus teaches me to forgive as I would have God forgive me.

Fifth, I realize that I can learn a lot from criticism. Some is just mean, and you have to filter that out. But some criticism is constructive and a great learning opportunity. Sixth, I pray a lot. There's a beautiful prayer someone gave me - it's by a Serbian Orthodox bishop, and it's called "prayer for enemies." People can find it on my website .... brianmclaren.net. That prayer has helped me so much, I can hardly say. It begins, "Bless my enemies, O Lord. Even I bless them and do not curse them." Then it lists all the ways enemies and critics help us. "Just as a hunted animal finds safer shelter than an unhunted animal does, so do I, pursued by enemies, find safer shelter in the shadow of your wings" - it's really beautiful and inspiring and challenging.

But I wouldn't be honest if I didn't add that sometimes I just fail and the anger gets the best of me, and I start to get discouraged and overwhelmed. Often, at that point, God sends along some encouragement through a friend or a reader or someone I meet. So ultimately, I feel that I'm upheld by a power far greater than I can take any credit for.

there are all kinds of labels people have given to describe you--liberal, nonorthodox, neoevangelical. how would you like to be described?

Hmmm. I guess I'd like to be known as a fallible human being who is trying to learn to follow Jesus. As a human being, I have something in common with everyone in the world - Jewish, Muslim, atheist, Catholic, Protestant, whatever. And as someone trying to learn to follow Jesus, I am called to serve everyone and love them as my neighbor, which flows from loving the God who loves us all. But my guess is that this can't be reduced to a functional label very well!


okay, last question, this is a practical one. the refuge is a rag-tag community of Christ-followers. we're pretty messed up ourselves, without alot of resources, but we have huge hearts to impact the Kingdom. what are some things we could do as individuals to do to start a "revolution of hope" in a really practical way?

At the end of "Everything Must Change," I really grapple with this question, and I decide not to come up with a list, but simply to focus on one thing: faith. I believe the most radical thing we can do is to disbelieve the many framing stories that are given to us, and believe the story given to us by Jesus.

If we have that shift in confidence, I think it will work out in a thousand really exciting ways. In fact, we'll be developing a blog where people can share ideas about what they're doing and how it's going. And that will be a major function of the tour we're doing early next year too - to help people dream together and share ideas.

Thankfully, there are so many great organizations that we can team up with. Amahoro-africa.org, floresta.org, sojo.net, emergentvillage.com, World Vision, the One Campaign and the MIcah Challenge are some of my favorites.

But let me just add one more practical idea. I think passionate people like you all could do something really interesting and enjoyable: throw parties for your neighbors. Just get people together. Have some games, help people get-acquainted, have some good food, wear name tags, share email addresses and phone numbers. Then the host could say something like this: "I'm really glad everyone came over, because I think we all feel that the world needs a lot of change, and I'm hoping we can try to be good neighbors for each other. In other words, we know the world needs a lot of change, and we can make a little start there by being the kind of neighborhood that would make the world a better place. That's why we wanted to get everyone together, and if you have any ideas, I'm ready to help." Then see if anyone has an idea. No prayers, no sermons, just an act of good will toward your neighbors. I think that if a bunch of us did this sort of thing, pretty soon people would be talking about God, because a good neighbor is a sign of the kingdom of God, at least I think that's one thing Jesus was telling us.

brian mclaren is an author, speaker, pastor, and networker among innovative Christian leaders, thinkers, and activists. married to Grace, they have four young adult children. you can learn more about brian & organizations he is involved with at www.brianmclaren.net.

check out info for the everything must change 2008 tour here (tracy howe collaborated with brian on a CD that is companion to the book & is part of the tour. details here)

to order everything must change, click here

check out this brian mclaren YOUTUBE video for an overview of everything must change

the refuge goes off the map!

when we started the refuge last year we were a wreck. literally. a small group of us had left a megachurch wounded & disenfranchised but full of dreams of the way we longed to live out our faith. most days we woke up doubting ourselves, ready to quit even though we had just started. then, over a qdoba burrito & an hours worth of kathy’s tears, our friend tracy howe shared some of the fewest but most powerful words in the life of the refuge “you guys need to make some new friends…” she invited us to the off the map conference in seattle and assured us that she’d introduce us to a bunch of people who wouldn’t think we were crazy. we went. we were bold and introduced ourselves to as many of these new thinkers we could possibly meet. and we went home feeling a little more certain we were at least on the right path.

now, year 2 for off the map has marked just how far we’ve come. this year we brought 11 others with us to seattle (the conference was november 1-3rd). we actually knew people and we didn’t feel like middle schoolers at their first dance. people actually knew about the refuge and we don’t feel crazy anymore.

off the map is not the kind of conference where you get a spiritual high and then come home and don’t remember anything you learned. it’s hard to describe, but it is much more steady. solid. deep. it just sort of gets under your skin and makes you think. about God. about community. about living out the ways of Jesus in really practical ways. about the tension of our faith in these changing times. our team crashed on the floor of a wonderful church called vineyard community church in shoreline & spent a lot of time processing, laughing, eating & dreaming. we of course felt cool because our new friend jim henderson, the director of off the map, actually knows us and made us feel so loved (along with everyone else at the conference!). sage played his steel guitar in one of the main venues (we were so proud). kathy & karl got to share the refuge story at ken loyd’s “cheap church planting” workshop. there are so many highlights, but we thought those that went could share the takeaways so that those of you who wonder what’s going on in the big kingdom of God can get a taste, too. check out the many links, so many committed people living it out. enjoy & hope you’ll consider joining us next year!

amber lane: listening to some of the speakers, a passion surfaced in me that has long been dormant for social justice. especially within ‘religious’ institutions, and the question that I keep asking myself…how can I be part of something that upholds my values for social justice, and not part of something that opposes it either knowingly or unknowingly. i was reminded that this world is a hard one to live in if you’re not part of the majority, whether that be anglo-saxon, heterosexual, non-addicted, or thin. it is devastatingly difficult. given the difficulty we somehow make it through the day, maybe so we can continue to challenge the norms. whatever the reason, we are not alone and we can do this thing called life together.

christa romig-leavitt: "we will die with many, many, many unanswered questions. but we are paving pathways for our children in which they will live out christianity in beautiful and unimagined ways. in justice and love. In creativity." ... "we are dis-membered. what if we started re-membering." the first quote is from a woman. the second from a man. i heard them both in Seattle. they make me think...let us all keep going. let us stay on this journey of question making to discover and re-member Jesus. let us do our best to stay dirty and resist the temptation to clean our hands. let us be okay with more questions than answers. let us keep loving.

john nunez: the thing that has stuck in my brain the most happened the first night. someone from up front spoke about a conversation they had with a woman while checking into their hotel. "if you were to come back to christianity/this whole church thing, what would you want/need?" she said acceptance. i thought how crazy it is that after 2000 yrs and a whole lot of talking, training, building, spending, discipling, memorizing, growing, claiming, praying about Jesus...the church/christians still suck at accepting. do we get forgiven and accepted mixed up? (check out what i mean http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acceptance) and i thought..... when a christian does accept a 'lost' or even a 'damaged' person, what kind of pressure to change or "repent" comes with it? Jesus' style of acceptance is probably so beautiful and elegant that when it's really displayed in the world, it's unrecognizable.

john parks: off the map was intriguing. it seems like we christians are beginning to experience the heart of God differently today. i started to step back and really look at my theology. faith is not so much about having all the right answers or having every base covered or even being able to defend my beliefs with the Bible. all that has a role but if I don’t love and accept people with actions just like Jesus did my testimony will always be a hollow reflection of God’s tremendous love for us. i was inspired to continue to lean into God’s love so that it can flow through me into His world and people everywhere.

jose escobar: loved the conference, but more so than anything, even though I got there late, i loved the time hanging out with everyone that went from the refuge. related to the conference, I liked the concepts and the diverse speakers, men, women, white, black, christian, and muslim, but it was also marked by a fairly non-diverse crowd. my favorite part of the conference though was the bridge service that we went to. i really loved the creativity, energy, and the music and songs (of which they wrote themselves). the service is really where i came out excited about we're trying to do at the refuge. all in all, it was a cool weekend!

leslie kaczeus: sadell bradley of equipping ministries international read excerpts from the willie lynch letter and let's make a slave in her workshop. i had never heard this and it sickened me, saddened me, and gave me a deeper understanding of the generations of brokenness and anger that our friends have lived through. she is an amazing woman. if you ever have a chance to hear her speak, don't miss it! i also enjoyed the workshop on making friends with witches by phil wyman who is pastor at the gathering in salem, MA. he reinforced my thoughts about how normal people are that practice pagan religions and that we shouldn't be afraid to build relationships with them. overall, it was just so incredibly inspiring to see so many people building bridges in ways and places that most of us couldn’t imagine would ever happen. thanks so much for inviting me along and making me feel so welcome!

karl wheeler: once again i experienced the confirming and marvelous joy of a bar set low. so low, that all who wish are able to march right over, head held high and dignified. after 30 years of conferences which should have all been subtitled “beat the sheep” or “wow, you are a sucky christian." OTM is meaningful to me for its simple agenda of making friends, hearing from others, and setting the table of hospitality in all we do.

kathy escobar: one of the highlights for me was hanging out with our friends at the bridge worship service at on the house/church of the undignified in capital hill. agents of future rocks. loved chatting with jeff & jason from santa barbara’s uffizi mission project, deeply committed to their homeless friends & incarnational ministry with no programming. hearing rose swetman say “being missional is not having a cool service. who cares what band you have? i’m so tired of caring about what the meeting looks like. but what i care about is are you being the new humanity, and the presence of Christ in your neighborhood?” favorite quote: “people with power never think about it; people without power think about it all the time.” thomas friedman, quoted by brian mclaren who really is one of the most gentle but powerfully simple speakers i have ever heard.

mike herzog: i connected with brian mclaren and how the church is like music. the old way is like classical with exact notes lead by a conductor (a lead pastor). the new way is like jazz different people playing different notes in the context of a chart (shared leadership). both are playing the right music, just differently. and we could not have our jazz without their classical music. another thing about classisal vs jazz--there are no women, or native americans or africian americans etc. that wrote wrote classical, but many of the marginalized play jazz. my best take away was to practice what church is really about, being in real relationship with people.

sage harmos: i had the priviledge of playing music for OTM this year. my playing partner, jeff greer, is a young and intensely talented musician. he also is bald, has an orange goatee a half a foot long, and wears a kilt. my highlight was when a couple wearing western clothing (and the fellow had an american flag on his hat) thanked me and said how moving the music was for them. they come from a pentecostal evangelical church, and love to hear the steel guitar (usually country) in worship music. it had the spirit which they love in worship. they were so happy that we weren't throwing the baby out with the bathwater when it comes to renewing our way of living out our faith. no one was "too cool" or "uncool" in our time together as conferencegoers. all were truly welcome.

we'll end with this...from nate blegger's blog, a conversation between he and ken loyd, the pastor of home, a new plant from the bridge committed to the homeless in portland. nate says, "i usually end up expressing to folks that the thing that gets me most is the “slowness.” “slowness! that’s the point!!” ken said. “you will be an instant success in maybe four or five years… you have to do things that are completely un-extraordinary. don’t do anything special or spectacular. this is how you will be legendary.” he went on to say that so many churches out there are trying to do extraordinary things. it is getting tiring for people. we just have to be normal and engage people where they are at with the absolutely normal things of life."

other conference bloggers that linked to the refuge:
john smulo
(hey, check out john's cool post from earlier this year "be like jesus" so good)
erin at decompressing faith

KATHY - meat lovers beware! our taste buds have been contaminated

“i want some meat!”

“i wish we could get more meat!”

"we really need more meat!"

i know those of you who are struggling to buy groceries are thinking the same thing. but i’m talking about a different kind of meat that has nothing to do with grocery stores but everything to do with church. i have heard the cry for “meat” within the church ever since i became a true-blue evangelical church-going christian. when i entered into a season of spiritual and emotional healing about 14 years ago I remember demanding it myself. things started getting a little intense in my women’s group (people were really sharing honestly from their heart, not holding back, going the distance instead of faking it) and i told my group leader “i really wish we used the Bible more in here, i really want more meat! i really want to grow...” (i am now of course so embarrassed that I said this & after having seen the light a few years later confessed to her for not recognizing then that what we were doing in that little group was far more than just some stupid slab of spiritual meat—it was actually the whole cow!). but i was not alone in this kind of thinking. i hear it all the time, although now it is like nails on a chalkboard to me, maybe even like all of my children’s nails on a chalkboard all at once. and as you all know that is a lot of fingernails!

here’s what i think people mean by “meat.”

1. “Bible knowledge” - as in scripture verses and telling us exactly what they are supposed to mean. the more the better. a little bit of hebrew or greek translation adds the perfect spice.

2. “teaching” - teachers telling people what they think they need to learn or know in a very specific clear way so that we feel like we got a “lesson”, something motivating.

3. “certainty” – these are the facts and we are 100% certain that’s what this means and on top of that we are certain this is what you are supposed to do with this knowledge, too.

4. “a touch of shame” – some kind of moment that gets created when you think “now I’ll try harder….I need to be more godly…I am convicted and now this week I will get rid of that sin for good.”

while none of those things are inherently “wrong” what gets to me about all of them is they are sort of irrelevant to the gospel of Jesus. in fact, he said over and over to the religious leaders who had these 4 things mastered up and down, backwards & forwards, “ummm, guys, you are missing the point. here’s all that you need to do—be like me.” he didn’t say “go to a room, feed your belly with knowledge, get inspired and go home feeling spiritually fat.” he said, “hang out with the outcasts, the losers, the nonreligious, the prostitutues, the sick (oh, and by the way, that means you), get in touch with your brokenness & need for me and practice the way of self-sacrifice, generosity of spirit, humility and love. yes, my friends, this is what will change the world.”

i love the Bible. i think scripture can be transforming. but i also believe we have dismissed that true spiritual maturity is a life of serving others in tangible ways, humbling ourselves to the lowest place, giving up our comfort, money, time, pride for the sake of others. remember, the word of God became flesh, and that is what He did.

i think when we are honest what we really want is to be spoonfed spiritual milk and are terrified of true, tasty, Jesus steaks. most of the people i have been around through the years who demand “meat” are great, sincere believers. but usually their expressed desire for “meat” is actually them running for the safety of others who are more socially acceptable and sound more godly.

you see, the church has contaminated our taste buds. we have been taught to think that “spiritual” must include Bible knowledge, certainty, teaching, a touch of shame (and healing that looks like good behavior) so we keep seeking after it, church after church, Bible study after Bible study. but honestly, what it seems like to me is that people keep learning but never really apply much. we’re lonely but we never connect. we keep slipping in and out of services but never engage with a hurting person beyond “hi, nice to meet you.” we keep going to Bible studies & church meetings & services & prayer times hoping we’ll become more like Jesus and end up insulating ourselves more and more from the very places Jesus always was hanging out.

so here’s my soapbox mantra for the past 5 years or so, everytime I hear someone demand “meat”….“okay, no problem, look around. i see freezer after freezer full of it.”

reach out to someone in need no matter how messy it seems. help the poor. sacrifice your time and money. restore a broken relationship. love the outcast, especially the person that bugs the hell out of you. spend the time you waste watching TV investing in a person, no matter how young or old. stop nagging your spouse and change your behavior. serve someone else. open your home to others. force yourself to do something uncomfortable. get your head around the reality that you’re just as messed up as ‘those people’. humble yourself and let another person into your life. stay in a friendship for the long haul instead of running away.

and here’s what i believe usually happens next—never directly, always subtly—“nah, that kind of meat, i can do without. when does the next Bible study start?”

our taste buds have been contaminated. Jesus’ ways sometimes don’t initially taste too good going down. but for me, i have to say, nothing’s better than the aftertaste-- the quiet moments when I notice where God’s spirit worked, what He is teaching me about me, life, humanity in the midst, and the beauty in the ugliness.

i know a lot of people think that at the refuge we are drinking milk. it sure tastes like steak to me.

CHRISTA - Crazy Love

Yes. Completion. I want it, I want to: reach some magic weight where my tummy begins to flatten with no ab work! To know that Stella will grow up and be nice and not hate me. To have good hair. To know that I’ve done all the right things and not missed out. To know for sure that Jesus loves me.

I think a lot of people don’t love me and sure, it may just be a matter of time before they realize the wonderfulness of me and love me, but what if they don’t? And if regular people don’t how can Jesus? How can this perfect man love this incomplete, imperfect me? This me who is hateful and jealous and petty? This me who is above all scared and fearful and who doesn’t know how to trust and believe? I don’t know. I really don’t know.

But, I’m learning some stuff. Because of relationships and community I’m learning. I’m learning that when I have the boldness to share my “crazy” then sometimes people share their “crazy” back and then, OH then, what beauty happens because now we know that we’re all crazy and God has worked a miracle and given love and friendship where once there was just surface and thin conversation. I’m learning that there is more than this search for completion. If I get out of my head and myself long enough there is a world to live in and people to love. And love. Ah, love.

“Therefore I am going to allure her; I will lead her into the desert and speak tenderly to her...Then she will sing as in the days of her youth...I will betroth you to me forever; I will betroth you in righteousness and justice, in love and compassion...In that day I will respond, I will respond to the skies, and they will respond to the earth; and the earth will respond to the grain, the new wine and oil...I will plant her for myself in the land; I will show my love to the one I called ‘Not my loved one.’”

Maybe if I’m crazy enough I too, will be allured and where once I was not loved then I will be shown love. Love with justice. Love with compassion. Complete love.

what would jesus do with the church?

this blog is part of a synchroblog (people blogging about the same topic at the same time). we heard about it from erin at decompressing faith. here are the details. check out the links below for others writing today & see what they have to say about the same topic. we chose to participate because this is a subject near and dear to our heart.. now we will be honest, we can be people who rant and rave about all the things that are wrong with the church. you all know we are good at that! but the truth is that ranting and raving doesn’t change anything. action does. we couple the refuge's belief statement with brennan manning’s challenging words, “if you want to know what a person really believes, you need to watch what they do.” when it comes to matters of “church”, actions do speak louder than words. we believe it’s that simple. we believe right now, more than ever, the world is watching. wondering. what kind of people are Christians? how are they best expressing the life of Christ corporately?


what would Jesus do with the church? maybe he has given us a glimpse of what he thought the foundational values would be in his most famous sermon. just think how different “church” would be if we took these words seriously corporately not just individually. here’s our little interpretation of the beatitudes in matthew 5:3-10 for churches.

blessed are those who realize their need for God…
“need me the most.”
we think Jesus hopes that we’d be communities who actually recognized our spiritual poverty & need for him. we have observed in church a reliance not on God but on high-tech power points, slick programs, video clips, fog machines, lights, amazing singers, inspiring sermons, and starbucks coffee. we believe Jesus would unplug church and get back to what is really important—raw interactions with people, stories, questions, tangible life on life that required absolutely nothing more than people & hearts.

blessed are those who mourn...
"let people feel"
what if churches became places people could really feel, mourn, grieve, so that they could be comforted? many think that the church is the last place they can struggle because they’ve encountered people who have questioned their faith, given them trite answers, expected them to get over their pain quickly. the result is always shame and the one place we should be able to be free from shame becomes the greatest source of it. we believe Jesus wants the church to become communities that embrace pain. that allow for grief. that are safe for people to shake their fist at God (we think he can take it) but are surrounded by other people who keep comforting, offering hope, not giving up. this means we have to be willing to let go of our “fix-it” mentality, stay in for the long haul and understand real change takes time and might look different than we think.

blessed are the humble…
“put others first.”
Jesus said that those who are humble will inherit the earth, yet the “church” has tended to have an overconfidence, certainty, exclusivity that reeks of pride & arrogance. we believe Jesus is asking the church to consider some really hard things in this category: apologize for the wrongs we have committed, ways we have offended, hurt & beat up people who read the same verses & feel differently about them. bend our knee publicly. admit our mistakes. open our doors to the outcasts or better yet close our doors and use our money to “go out” instead of expecting everyone to “come in”. if we have a building, let other people use it a lot instead of keeping it locked up 6 days a week (yes, that means people from other denominations, beliefs & ideas). give up meeting for bible study and start actually living out the bible with someone in need that requires us to give up our time, money, pride.

blessed are those who hunger & thirst for justice…
“advocate for all of humanity”
the church has a bad reputation in the media for focusing on two issues—abortion & homosexuality. while this isn’t the place to get into that conversation, we must not ignore that every 16 seconds someone dies of starvation. little boys & girls are being sold into slavery right now. as you’re reading this, families are being drug from their homes and slaughtered. closer to home, that woman you just said hi to in the parking lot is getting beat up by her boyfriend, your co-worker can’t buy groceries for her babies because her power bill is so high. the hispanic or african american or middle eastern guy you know overhears the jokes that everyone at work is always telling. Jesus told us to hunger and thirst for justice & righteousness. maybe it is time to be suspicious of power that masquerades as morality. we have to expand our world, find out what’s happening in other places and make people aware of it so they can make their own decisions on how to respond. help people walk a mile in another man’s shoes. show single parents, the addicted & mentally ill, the outcasts that we give a rip about them. give as much money, airtime and encouragement as we can to local & global organizations that are dedicated to changing life tangibly & practically for those in need.

blessed are the merciful…
“be kind. it’s that simple.”
the church can be mean. ask a woman who’s had an abortion. someone who struggles with homosexuality. the single mom who asked for help with her rent. the person who believes in something different than Jesus and just wanted to have a conversation. the christian who starts to doubt. we believe Jesus is calling the church to be places of mercy. compassion. understanding. that we need to listen better. quit talking so much. hold the space. wow people with our ability to stay in & be present instead of ditch, dismiss, and move on to the next thing. build a reputation for kindness in small wonderful ways that starts to spread.

blessed are the pure in heart…
“freedom is better than slavery to approval & power.”
we believe that many churches are filled with leaders with great hearts who are sincerely trying to do what they think is best. we like to consider ourselves in this category! but we wonder if Jesus is challenging us all to notice how much of what we do is motivated by fear? how much approval are we trying to get? are we measuring success by stories of love and hope and transformation or by attendance, budgets, and adherence to the latest leadership book we just read? we think Jesus wants our hearts to be more pure, to be motivated by the right things, not our preservation or reputations. maybe he would challenge us to give away more than we think we can. to do anything we can to diffuse power. share leadership. ask ourselves hard questions about why we think we have to do certain things. don’t cater to the big givers, the power people, the ones we think are going to give extra bang for our buck. love people freely and help fan their gifts into flame instead of using them to get what we need.

blessed are the peacemakers…
“build bridges not walls.”
let’s face it, the church has a reputation for building walls against “the world”, those who don’t believe the same things we do. to be peacemakers we need to build bridges in our community, make friends with people & churches & organizations that are trying to advocate for the poor, the oppressed, the victimized even if we see God, the world differently. network with other faith communities instead of competing against them. teach and model peace, forgiveness, loving our enemies in tangible ways.

blessed are those who are persecuted…
“get ready for it to get harder."
really living out the gospel means it is going to hurt. paychecks will be cut, women & those without a voice will get more air time. people will leave, demand that we “give them what they are used to getting.” leadership gurus will tell us we are stupid, that we’re not doing things we must do to build a successful church. hardliners will think we are not focusing enough on making sure everyone knows the truth. we might get in trouble with our denomination, our old friends in ministry, oh all kinds of people who won’t like us changing.

+ + +

here’s our bottom line. we don’t really want to do this either. we know this is the hard road and we are human beings guided by a sense of “let’s find the path of least resistence as quickly as we can.” but that was what Jesus was railing against. he told us from the beginning—this is going to be hard, harder than you ever imagined. but if we take his words seriously, then it’s time for the church to quit following the ways of the world—power, success, exclusivity, structures that have to be sustained, techniques-that-win-and-move-us-up-a-notch and start working on downward mobility—diffused, flexible, diverse, power-less, poured out, present, humble. we do not presume to hit this right. we are wrestling with all the same things other churches are wrestling with. but we guess what we’re saying is “Jesus, we’re listening and we’ll try to give it a shot.”

check out what these others have to say about what they think Jesus would do with the church:

erin word
glenn hager
gary means
alan knox
nate peres
sally coleman
barb
rick stillwell
jeff greathouse
dan
jonathan brink
barbara legere
jason ellis
rainier

dreams

we have a dream…
it’s not a small one.
it’s not a huge one (we’re not planning to lead any marches anytime soon)
we think it’s a simple one.

and despite our cynicism about ‘church’ (yes, we know it seeps through!) we are idealists. we wouldn’t be doing this if we had given up.

we are still “foolish” enough to think some of our dreams are possible. we think when Jesus said “your Kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven” he meant that the Kingdom was possible now.

here are a few of our dreams...

we have a dream that we’d be people who took Jesus word’s seriously. this means we don’t get to just talk about it, we actually have to be forgiving, loving, sacrificing, humble. we need to be people willing to give away our stuff, care for the widows and orphans, die to ourself, hug lepers, lay down power, and make peace with our enemies.

we have a dream that all people would be valued. when we look at each other we don’t let color, socioeconomics, gender, theologies, shapes or sizes or social abilities get in the way of seeing the image of God and respecting each other’s worth, value & contribution to this world.

we have a dream that no single parent would feel like they were parenting alone. they’d have other people willing to fill in the gaps, pick up the slack, offer help, prayer, and love so it’s not so damn hard.

we have a dream that no one would feel crippled by their weaknesses. the damage from the past & present would not paralyze us from living out who God made us to be, instead, we’d use our story to help another person.

we have a dream that we’d know our neighbors. actually know them, and notice if they’re hungry or sad or lonely and do something about it if we can.

we have a dream that every child had grownups other than their parents who believed in them. we'd see all that was possible, and cheer them on in really tangible ways.

we have a dream that people of Jesus would be known for the acts of Jesus. when people hear the word “Christian” they did not cringe and immediately think “judgemental”. instead, they’d have warm feelings that were associated with the truth of Christ’s love & kindness because they experienced it from one of us at some point and couldn’t escape its power.

we have a dream that we’d be advocates. we will stand with the marginalized, oppressed, poor & unlovely, that we’d risk our pride. position, and power so that someone with none could get a little.

we have a dream that walls between churches & the community would crumble. walls that have been built because of fear and past ugly experiences would dissolve. that we’d learn to share resources, support each other & let care for human beings supersede our politics & theologies.

we have a dream that every person would feel known, loved & cared for by another human being. that we’d do our little part to help banish loneliness.

we have a dream that we’d be a community of dreamers. what are some of yours?

KATHY - we're in good company

when you think of mother teresa, what words come to mind? for me, i think of “poured out, deeply connected to God, amazingly humble, willing heart, in love with Jesus, filled up. sacrificial love” among many others. i am pretty sure “doubter of God”, “overwhelmed with emptiness”, or “tired of never getting His help the way she wanted” were not words i would have used to describe her. it’s sort of old news, but the recent release of mother teresa’s private letters has been rumbling around Christian & nonChristian circles in the past few months. I heard the story earlier this year, that during her decades of ministry she only had a few good weeks where she really felt it. the rest of her journey she didn’t feel God the way she longed to and experienced deep spiritual dryness that was agonizing.

here are some of the things she said to a trusted confidante:

"The more I want him — the less I am wanted”….."Such deep longing for God — and ... repulsed — empty — no faith — no love — no zeal. — [The saving of] Souls holds no attraction — Heaven means nothing — pray for me please that I keep smiling at Him in spite of everything."

and in some private letters to Jesus:

Lord, my God, who am I that You should forsake me?....The Child of your Love — and now become as the most hated one — the one — You have thrown away as unwanted — unloved. I call, I cling, I want — and there is no One to answer — no One on Whom I can cling — no, No One. — Alone ... Where is my Faith — even deep down right in there is nothing, but emptiness & darkness — My God — how painful is this unknown pain — I have no Faith — I dare not utter the words & thoughts that crowd in my heart — & make me suffer untold agony. So many unanswered questions live within me afraid to uncover them — because of the blasphemy — If there be God — please forgive me — When I try to raise my thoughts to Heaven — there is such convicting emptiness that those very thoughts return like sharp knives & hurt my very soul. — I am told God loves me — and yet the reality of darkness & coldness & emptiness is so great that nothing touches my soul. Did I make a mistake in surrendering blindly to the Call of the Sacred Heart?

the question is, does this comfort you or freak you out? i think for me, it’s a combination of both. it is so comforting to know that i am not alone in the darkness, that someone far more spiritual & powerful & poured out for God than me doubted just as much (maybe even more!) than I sometimes do. when i doubt, which is often, i hear this ugly little voice in my head that says “you loser, you have been a Christian for a long time and look where it’s gotten you. if you had more faith, you wouldn’t be in such a crappy spot. if you just bore down on the scriptures & started praying harder you wouldn’t be here to begin with. you must be doing something wrong to feel so disconnected from God. what do you need to confess or pray against so the bad feeling will go away?” i could go on and on, it’s all a little psycho inside my head when this starts to happen. i think if most of us are honest, we all have these sorts of thoughts to one degree or another (i think those of us who were trained in the evangelical-think-truth-and-then-it-will-become-your-reality strains have a greater degree of shame when we doubt). or maybe i’m the only one and you are all saying behind my back “what is kathy’s problem?” (yeah, that’s my next psycho thought after the first round…)

what is interesting to me about mother teresa, one of the most revered and beloved spiritual women of this century, is that she didn’t share these thoughts publically. they were in private letters. her interior world and her outside persona were two different things. i understand and respect her dilemma, and we do not have to go around sharing all of our private moments with God with everyone we meet. at the same time, it made me wonder why she was afraid to be more honest in public—would her ministry have been questioned? would she get reprimanded by the powers that be above her and encouraged to get her spiritual act together fast? would she have lost some of her following? i have no idea and because she’s so revered i feel a little guilty even questioning any of her motives, but i guess i am just questioning why her outside & inside had to look so different?

the heartbeat of the refuge is real authenticity, our outside & our inside being integrated. that means we say some of the crazy things rattling around in our head which can sometimes be quite unsettling. and we do this even though we are pretty certain that people (especially Christians) like positives! what sells are results—10 steps to this and 8 simple ways to that. the power of positive thinking, praying, living, eating, you name it. all of these things will get you reconnected to God in no time. no one likes to focus on the negative. i don’t, either. but i do like to focus on the truth. and the truth is that sometimes i am mad, tired, and wondering when-the-hell-i-am-going-to-hear-from-God-so-i-can-feel-better. and despite my doubts, i do believe Jesus came to bring us life, real life, a depth & fulfillment in ways that are sometimes so unexplainable. but i am trying to learn to embrace that real life, real relationship doesn’t mean that i never doubt, wonder, question, get angry, or feel like walking away. in fact, ingredients of real intimacy with God (and people) include all of those things. what i like about mother teresa’s journey is that even though she doubted, questioned, shook her fist, cried out, and sometimes wanted to walk away she did actually stay in. she kept pouring her heart out to God and lived out her passion for the poor & unloved as best she could. she didn’t lay down and die. she didn’t disconnect from life & community completely. she didn’t run the other way. she stayed in.

at the refuge, sometimes it is so clear that life gets harder than we hoped. we long for the easy road, some kind of escape, a short cut, some way to feel better quick. i believe wholeheartedly that Jesus and the crazy unexplainable movement of his spirit in our lives is the answer. but i guess i am reminded today that it doesn’t come quick, it doesn’t come easy and we are in good company with the saints when we doubt, question, and aren’t feeling him like we so desperately long for. i guess what i hope for me—and for all of us—is that we keep staying in.

KARL: volume is the key

this past weekend we hosted in the denver area our friends jim henderson and matt casper for a series of conversations. jim is a committed christian (small “c” on purpose, his preference) and matt is an atheist. together they collaborated on a book project, Jim and Casper Go to Church, and in the process they became friends. what a concept.


participating in these conversations over the weekend, i felt something familiar to me, that instinct when someone does not see the brilliance of our position and how we tend to react. it really does not matter if it is an atheist, republican, democrat, or most commonly just my poor, sweet wife--my instinct when someone disgrees tends to be the same.

here's what i consider the anatomy of a fight:

1. i present the undeniable facts or truth
2. april does not respond by acknowledging my superior intellect
3. i assume she did not hear me. if she heard me, she would just say “thanks, you are so smart”
4. so i end up saying the same thing, but a bit louder
5. april makes it clear that she can hear me, but she disagrees with me.
6. i repeat the volume step (#4), but with more volume
7. april now seems to be not repenting out of spite
8. i assume that if i ridicule her, then she will somehow see how smart my idea is.


you can see how this will end. i am hoarse and april is no closer to my reality. it happened each day this weekend as matt and jim listened to what was supposed to be questions from the audience. every time, someone could not believe that matt or jim saw life or the bible or faith differently, and of course all they need is more volume. or perhaps if we ridicule the atheist or progressive christian, then they will change. of course, this was played amongst many wonderful, thoughtful & sincere other questions as well, but the volume ones really struck a chord.

i loved the weekend, the conversation. i am trying so hard to turn down the volume so I can actually hear what those who see life differently have to say. what do you sy? what are some of your perspectives on the conversation?

a believer. an atheist. an unlikely friendship. engage in the dialogue in denver this upcoming weekend september 14-16th!

the following is a reprint from september 07 vertigo: the monthly online journal of spiritual dizziness at the refuge. some of you have already read it, but the blog gives you a chance to comment on it, too. for those of you who don't get vertigo, we wanted you to have a chance to experience it. to sign up for vertigo each month, click here.

this subject hits a place near and dear to our hearts--the ability to dialogue instead of debate, offer love & respect instead of judgement & condemnation when others don't believe the same things we believe. being a Christian doesn't mean you have to be a judgemental, arrogant jackass whose sole purpose is to tell others of their wrong thinking. ok, so some of you are saying "well, wait a minute, Jesus told us we need to speak the truth, share the gospel, not water it down." we understand the dilemma, we feel it, too. and that's the big idea here: how do we live out the ways of Jesus, really? can't we learn to be better listeners, lovers of all people? what does this mean for the "church'? for the refuge? for each of us?

we hope you can join us as we dive into the conversation with the authors of the new book Jim & Casper Go to Church. jim henderson's a Christian & former pastor from seattle and director of off the map. matt casper's an atheist who lives in san diego. they traveled across the US together last summer visiting over 20 churches; their unlikely friendship and perspective on the Christian church will challenge us all. they are coming to the refuge on sunday, september 16th (we are hosting them at two other locations, too, friday night the 14th at CU boulder & saturday morning the 15th at pathways church). more details are on the web.

in preparing for their visit, we had a chance to ask jim and matt a few questions.

what motivated each of you to do the jim and casper go to church project?

JIM: After "winning an atheist's soul" on ebay I was approached by George Barna about doing a book that featured myself and an atheist going to church together and writing reviews. Beyond that it just sounded like a very fun thing to try and pull off.

ps: you can read a little more about that experience here.

MATT: Ummm. I have been engaging people in talks about such questions-is there God? Why are we here? What should we do?-for years. In the book, you see that first I met Jason, who runs a home church, and we became friends. Then, through him, I met Jim, and we ended up writing a book together. I was motivated by the same reasons I am motivated to travel, to read as much as possible, to write music: I knew it would be a learning experience, and I knew I would have fun, too.


what was the funniest moment on your adventures together?

JIM: My funniest moments came when I knew what Casper was about to experience but I let it happen anyway and just watched for his reaction--like getting ambushed by a couple of Bible thumpers right after church or watching people's faces twitch when we told them that Matt was an Atheist and I was a Christian and we were writing a book together about church.

MATT: Probably any time Christians made Jim more uncomfortable than they made me. Or maybe at The Bridge in Portland. It caters to a young hip crowd, who are typically a young, hip, and poor crowd. About midway into the service, they all started heading for the exits (a smoke break, I presumed). Seconds later, the collection buckets-trick or treat baskets that looked like Spiderman and Batman-came out. Suddenly, this mass exodus made perfect sense.


thinking back on your travels together, what surprised you the most?

JIM: How fair Matt was in his assessments of Christians--not a surprise as in a BIG surprise but as in a pleasant surprise. Also on how much we agreed on.

MATT: How much we agreed on. See? We just did it again! Also, Jim used to play in a few bands ("We were like 'The Beatles' of Mexico City. . . "). The biggest surprise was how quickly Jim and I established a rapport. . . within about a few hours, we were holding nothing back.


matt, if you knew nothing about Christianity but only went to the large churches to find out what would you say are some of the primary values of Christianity?

MATT: Believing in God, growing the church, converting people to Christianity. Sounds good when you read it like that. But I want to know: what good does simply believing do anyone? Belief is not an ends, it's a means. And growing the church is not the same as helping people or doing God's will. . . it's more like a business objective. And when the talk was about converting people, it sounded like folks were more interested in putting "notches on their cross" rather than really helping people. . . "So, Bob, how many conversions did you land this week? Only 3? HAH! I converted 12 people! Boo-yaa!"

jim, if you were telling the average evangelical christian what is on your heart related to the "church", what would you say?

JIM: If I didn't have to open with a long list of qualifiers I would say: We've inherited a view of church that is flawed. It has been in the works for about 1700 years or more. It is called the religion business. We need to rescue Jesus from religion and take him public. We have an historic opportunity to nudge this thing back into movement phase if we can find the courage to follow in our founders' footsteps and care more about how the missing see us than how the found do.


of course, your trip was limited to short visits into churches for an hour or so service. if you had really hung out in the community for a longer period of time, what do you think you may have discovered?

JIM: If we could have located them, we would have seen numbers of ordinary people serving non-Christians in ordinary ways. Unfortunately due to the economic pressures (as in justifying the pastor/speaker's salary) put on churches there is little to no time to feature these ordinary people every weekend.

MATT: I would (and here's my bias) probably have been disappointed as--based on some conversations I've had with more than a few Christians--a lot of people seem to think being a Christian requires little more than a 10% donation and an hour on Sunday. However, I did attend a small group at a local Baptist church where people talked about how to apply what they learned in that day's sermon, but it was kind of meandering and no real "action items" came out of it.

what is the hardest part for each of you to understand about the other person's belief system? what has surprised you the most about the others person's beliefs? what has offended you? encouraged you?

JIM: I don't find atheism hard to understand. I think it is a common sense and reasonable conclusion to come to if you are limited to measuring using our five senses. Further I think that a reasonable and maybe even a compassionate person (Christians call them humanists as if it is a dirty word) would certainly find it ludicrous to believe in any god currently sponsored by the major world religions. I mean they are pretty weird--including the religion known as Christianity. Having said that, I find atheism to be very difficult to believe in. I have had too many experiences in life that are transrational, loving and lovely to not raise my suspicions that there is a God out there who is at least as good as I can be (on my good days). Besides whether or not Jesus is objectively true or real I would like him to be and since I don't find anything particularly compelling or interesting about atheism (which could also be a reflection of my lack of intellect) I will stick with the Jesus story and look forward to falling into his arms when this rat race is finally over. There just has to be a place called heaven--this place is just too screwed up. I can't believe that this is the end. . . sorry.

MATT: This is the question we don't discuss in the book, but purposefully. It's not that we avoid it. It's just that. . . well, what's the point? If you want me to learn about your beliefs, show me how you live. Jim and Jason and all my believing friends know that I think believing in supernatural gods is really quite strange when you stop to think about it. But what encouraged me was hearing Jim freely agree ("Yes, I see how you think it could be very strange. . . ") and not try to tell me I was wrong. And I never said he was wrong, either, because, in my opinion, when it comes to what you believe it's subjective and cannot be proven or disproven, so why bother. . . ? Ask questions, get to know a person, be free of an agenda beyond, pursue "I'd like to know what you think." Nothing Jim did offended me as he answered every question from an honest place. Who could ask for anything more? I came away from all of this encouraged, because American Christians-in spite of the fact they worship one of the most peaceful men who ever lived-can get quite vitriolic and violent while discussing their beliefs. Jim didn't and doesn't.

what is the best thing you have learned from being in relationship with one another?

JIM: Being friends with Matt has made me a much more honest and grounded follower of Jesus. It has also motivated me to become a better practitioner of dialog and made me less afraid of difference. Our friendship is a unique gift and one I hope to cultivate for the rest of my life. I really enjoy Matt and especially enjoy his humor, kindness and interest in others.

MATT: Being friends with Jim has made me a much more honest and grounded atheist. It has also motivated me to become a better practitioner of dialog and made me less afraid of difference. Our friendship is a unique gift and one I hope to cultivate for the rest of my life. I really enjoy Jim and especially enjoy his humor, kindness and interest in others. Also, being friends with Jim has changed how I see the world. I was never an "angry atheist" like so many high profile authors we hear about today--Dawkins, Hitchens. et al. (I think they are "anti-theists" not atheists as their books seem to be about how there is no God, not about how living with no God can be a good thing.) I am now so much more in touch with how I see the world, and I remain as open as ever to the fact that I may be wrong about there not being a god. Some would say that makes me an agnostic, but the fact about gods is that no one can prove or disprove their existence. Thus, we never know (until we're dead). And so, aren't we all agnostic with tendencies toward either belief or non belief? I never asked myself these kinds of questions or crystallized these kinds of thoughts until I met and traveled with Jim Henderson. I am glad to know him.

the reason we invited you guys to come to denver is we believe in your project. we are listening. as Christians, we really want to be people who ask ourselves the hard questions--how did our reputation become so crazy? what has the church become? why is it so hard for us to live alongside people who disagree? we of course are hoping there will be a wide range of people at these conversations, across faiths, no faith, ages & experiences. so, as you prepare to come here to denver, what are you guys hoping the conversation will do for those who come?

JIM: Move them to connect with someone they think of as "the other" or as "an outsider" and become great question askers.

MATT: Help people return to treating faith as faith, and not as fact. In the book, I close with wishing people would stop staying, "Be a Christian or go to hell" and start saying, "We follow Jesus, and here's what we do and how it has helped us."

so, everyone, we hope this gave you a small taste of our conversation. we'd love to hear your comments. this is definitely one to invite your friends to. they will be at the refuge on sunday, september 16th at 5:30 pm. we are also hosting them at two other locations to give as many people as possible the chance to participate. . . CU boulder on friday night the 14th at 6pm and at pathways church on saturday morning at 10 am. for details click here.

KATHY - fabio jesus

i hate to pick on fabio, but honestly, I do not know what his appeal is. he’s just so….perfect. those abs, the flowing hair, the perfect smile, those penetrating eyes. if you could can the world’s view of “perfect specimen” of course he would be it. (i will admit i do have a weakness for long hair, jose had me under his spell when he grew his hair out last year and had that liberal-lawyer-surfer look! too bad he has to keep his job as mr. conservative united pilot) but, back to fabio. and Jesus.

a few weeks ago, I was watching the trinity broadcasting network, the home of christian-evangelical-name-it-and-claim-it-craziness. we are talking a serious multimillion dollar industry—all in the name of Jesus. it actually is quite nauseating but our friend nadia was asked to write a book about her experience of watching TBN for 24 hours straight. she wanted to add some flavor to each hour, so she invited karl & i over to offer our perspectives since we are now pretty much former good evangelicals who now live in the sh**ty christian camp. well our hour slot included a ½ hour program called God Wants You to be Wealthy where the “speaker” wore a silver trenchcoat mini-mini dress with 4 inch heels and tried to hock her book “God wants you to be a millionaire.” She encouraged us to “sow our best gift now” by donating to her program. don’t even get me going on that one. but my commentary for the moment is that she was perfect in every way, with off the charts confidence, and an absolutely convincing delivery to all of the poor souls who are just hoping for some kind of crumb to make their lives better. her promises were ridiculous and using God that way just really gets to me...the other 1/2 hour program featured the Holy Land Adventure theme park in orlando, with Jesus reenactments throughout the day. guess who Jesus looked like? yeah, fabio.

have we simply made God in our own image? we want Jesus to be hip, cool, appealing. that’s what we are drawn to—images in people magazine & cosmo. christianity (mostly the american version) have become the root of a money making machine, a business that is fine-tuned and finessed to perfection. we like to watch and listen to people who are good looking, smart & make life look simple. this flawless, easy, and comfortable appearance has become a staple of church programming. we want to make the gospel easy for people to get. we want to make their church experience comfortable, distraction-free. we don’t want anyone to be offended. we want Jesus to be attractive. what Bible are we reading for goodness sake? Jesus was ugly. not cool. not worldly. not slick. not hot. the old testament prophet isaiah describes him this way:

he had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
he was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not. (isaiah 53:2-3)


does this look like the Jesus most churches are trying to sell? does this look to you like any of the pretty, neat, and tidy intact families you see on most church programs & websites? I don’t want to dismiss all those pearly white teeth and smiling faces, but come on, people that look like that, really only “look” like that. and here’s the rub--these are the people most churches are trying to attract. pretty, happy, smiling, successful, confident, married with 2.5 kids. they look great—on the outside.

well, Jesus surely wouldn’t have made the photo shoot cut. there’s no glamour in who He was, what He did, and what He has called us all to. in fact, not only is it not glamorous, but it’s downright stinky, dirty, and as ugly as you can get. feed the poor, hug the lepers, give away all of your money, care for the prostitutes, share your stuff, sacrifice your pride & comfort & family’s name, lay down power, hang out in the slums, be honest about all the daily struggles in your imperfect life. that, my friends, is the gospel. you see, it can’t be cleaned up. because real humanity, people trying to live this difficult Genesis 3 life, isn’t pretty. it’s full of pain and insecurity and shame and sin and craziness and desperation. i don’t care how pretty you try to dress it up on the outside, it just isn’t all that attractive. now I personally find it beautiful beyond words—all that rawness, dirt & sweat rubbed up against honesty, unconditional love, grace, healing, and hope. to me, it’s glory. i believe wholeheartedly that Jesus came to dwell with us in the stench and offer beauty and redemption in the midst. He sits in the muck and isn’t afraid of it because it’s real.

so why are we so afraid of it? i am. i admit it regularly. i think it’s because i often make God in my own image. i lump Jesus into all my worldly ideas about success and value and beauty. everything has to be fabio-like, but in reality, life gets ugly. yeah, i can clean up the outside pretty nicely, but it’s just christian window dressing. my faith isn’t strong enough to heal me, victory is not my middle name, shame is. i can never really measure up. i keep screwing up the same things over and over again. i know that’s the big idea of the gospel—we can’t. i can’t. it’s why i so desperately need the real Jesus and His grace, His hope, His help. the whole big idea here was always our heart, the stuff on the inside, but that is always the most dangerous place to go. my hour of TBN tv-watching just reminded me how often the current contemporary “church” (and me, when i’m making God in my own image) isn’t into the real Jesus. and i think that there’s a simple reason—the real Jesus is unpredictable, wild, crazy, and asks us to do hard things in our life that require us to get up off our comfy seats, peel our eyes off the video screen, and engage in the ugliness & beauty of other human beings. to bring what’s underneath our veneer and coverups to the table and look beyond what we see on the surface in others, too. money, power, comfort. strength, worldy beauty. none of it means a damn thing in God’s economy but it sure gets some serious airtime in the american church, and not just the ones on TV. Jesus, forgive us, for making you in our image. we admit, it’s a really bad (albeit easier) idea.

KARL - I am a Sh**ty Christian

I hope you will forgive the coarse title, I was quite depressed when I started this blog. The title reflects the way I often feel when I compare myself to others. I used to be a good Christian. Well, I was almost a good Christian. I only missed it by a few devotions and had I lead two more people to Christ I am pretty sure I could have gotten some merit badge. I was a confident and positive young man filled with lots of interesting trivia about the Bible. Now, I am middle-aged, have spent most of my adult life being paid as a “professional Christian” and mostly wonder what happened?

And I am realizing that it is as difficult now to move from being noticed to obscurity as it was to sit alone at lunch in junior high. Mostly, only good Christians get noticed. As a matter of fact that may be the primary task of the good Christian--to be noticed. God, friends, admirers, kids, spouses, bosses, you name it. We crave that our goodness, godliness, and “hard work for the Kingdom” be acknowledged. So as I sit back and reflect on how far back I have fallen in my good Christian duties, I have identified a couple of the primary qualities that separate good Christians from the rest of us.

Goals.
Good Christians have lots of goals.
Attendance to double, do more devotions, more push-ups, better schools, and more moral government officals and laws. The Christian bookstore can assist you…apparently we have become a fix-it faith, get-er-done kind of Christianity. Think back to last New Years, those resolutions you made, and I bet you wanted to be a better Christian.

Sh**ty Christians are slow, and sometimes appear lazy; but what they are trying very hard to do is to stop measuring everything. Loving people seems to look different now than winning people, and I can not for the life of me find that passage where Jesus told his disciples their numbers were a bit low….can anyone help me?

Here are some of my new lofty goals:
not tinkle when I sneeze
meet tiger woods
love better

That’s about it….

Power.
Good Christians seem to have a lot of power.
Good Christians have an enormous amount of power, especially over nagging character defects. It seems that good Christians do not struggle much with issues of the flesh and personal history. Somehow, they always find victory, which means, that as far as anyone can see, they have no visible defects. Only good Christians are considered as leaders, and the better the Christian, the more “leadership” they are given. With power comes a sense of independence that allows the good Christian to not really need others too much.

Shi**ty Christians are usually total losers. They struggle with morality, substances, and the confidence to believe that everyone should do what they say. They compound their problem by telling folks of their problems. And then just to make things worse, they actually ask for help.

Certainty.
Good Christians are certain they are right.
How often do you hear from a good Christian, “I wonder, what do you think, maybe I am wrong?” The Bible is book of facts to be mastered, and once you have the proper key, it all fits into a nice, neat little package. Certainty is what gives the good Christian such confidence, the ability to tell others how to live without hesitation. They often seem to say certainty is faith, but if you are sure do you really need faith?

Sh**ty Christians doubt, ask questions, and aren’t too sure anymore. We tend to wonder, question, and notice that some believe differently than we do and we don’t always feel obligated to fix the difference.

I wrote this blog to just create a conversation, to stir some thoughts. Have you thought of yourself as one of those shi**y Christians? and if so what prompts it? What is that makes you so bad at this? Just know you’re not alone.

8 ways to shrink a church

this is a reprint of an article we shared in our august 07 vertigo, the online journal of spiritual dizziness at the refuge. we know some of you have already read it but we wanted to put it up for those that don't get vertigo (if you are interested in subscribing, click here). plus, this way you can comment, too.

when we planted the refuge 15 months ago, there were many people who thought (and secretly hoped) we'd replicate the "attractional" church model that we had been part of. it could have been so simple--a few good messages, amazing, upbeat music, a few light trees and fog machines, and we would have been golden. good communicator, solid care pastor, it was the formula for success. one problem--it violated so many of our core beliefs about what "church" is supposed to be. so instead we have chosen this harder path in the wider Christian community. at this point we aren't sure if we're smart or stupid.

but we do know there are many church leaders out there who are overwhelmed by the exponential growth they've experienced in the past few years (they definitely followed the manual we seem to have misplaced). they don't quite know what to do because their budgets and staff keep increasing, they're running million dollar building campaigns, and sunday programming continues to ramp up to near-hollywood levels. we have heard their cry and offer our heartfelt and sympathetic advice. you see if there is anything we feel competent at, it is managing rapid growth. in fact, we are confident we can solve the problems of churches that are too big. our answer? our area of expertise?

we call it "Church Shrinkage"....

just apply these 8 easy principles and we're 100% sure your church will shrink (but who knows, maybe in the end you'll live out some of your dreams of the way you've longed church could be)

1. shoot the sheriff.

don't build what is called a faith community on any superstar other than Jesus. remember, He said He was the head of the thing, although people usually want a more tangible and handsome superstar, one hero who makes all of the decisions. hmm, no telling where it all went awry, but as far as we can tell the early church was just a group of men & women who loved God and each other and wanted others to know Him, too.

2. tell the truth.

be more honest about where each dollar goes, who gets the biggest salary (and the least), what the real agenda is. do 25 million dollar buildings really help poor Jesus out, or are they in fact ways to proclaim power and comfort? what is hidden is always bad news for the poor.

3. embrace brokenness.

sounds good when it is a program for others, but is confession a way of life for leadership or are the stories of brokenness someone else's and the speakers seem to have more "victory" than the average schmoe? what happens to people when they aren't getting "healed" fast enough?

4. demand equality.

look around, do women have equal status & power? enough said.

5. defer to the least of these.

are the folks in charge the ones Jesus would notice, or do they seem more from wall street? are poor, uneducated, but loving servants of Jesus on the elder board? or does the board look more like a fortune 500 company? is success measured in dollars and numbers? whose phone calls get returned? who is getting invited to play golf with the pastors?

6. be generous.

where does most of the money go? what is spent on "the show", programming, creating comfort versus single moms, struggling families or hungry children?

7. let people speak.

why are we so afraid of dialogue? why do only the "professionals" get to speak?

8. value people above strategy.

what happens when someone is passionate about something but it doesn't align with the personal preferences of church leadership? do staff people seem to come and go on a regular basis? someone is being sacrificed for a strategy, and that strategy is about being bigger.

see, anyone can have a smaller church, if you lay down power, control, and personal comfort. if you are willing to be honest about what happens behind closed doors, then your church can also have the joy of shrinking. we'll be glad to help.